It's as simple as that. I think any one translation as the "gold standard" is likely a mistake, and I have found helpful insights at one time or another in all of these. In my case, and an important one in our discussion of the ESV, the next piece to fall off was the consistency between the OT (Hebrew) and the NT. Metaphors don't work and in fact can mean the opposite from language to language. And thank you, Suzanne. But I wouldn't call any of these people dishonest. That's an interesting topic: capitalization. One more plug, though, for keeping multiple translations on hand for serious study. better choice as a church Bible, if the intent is to preserve continuity with
That is using men as a synonym for people carries with it a tone of disrespect. I figure, and here I might be wrong, that those who call for a return to KJV are engaging in smokescreen rhetoric. June 23, 2009 at 07:12 PM. The Voice is so far the best translation I've seen for this. There are even worse translations that do lead to salvation. Now of course this put Pagels in rather embarrassing position, there are even scenes in the movie where the main character is handling leaves of her book written in an ancient codex. * hypocritical 85% I am curious as to how much Greek you do know. Wow, CD. Genesis lives on level 3. 1) The NIV is easier to read for most normal people. I agree that either bible can lead to salvation. It is indeed the case that liberals and conservative tend to make different kinds of mistakes in the processing of information and in evaluating views in cognitive dissonance with their own. I'm a little perplexed by your blanket comment about "NRSV congregations," too. I find it interesting that CD-Host's critique of ESV is based primarily in the politics of that same debate, from many far more strident than I who clearly reacted (and not necessarily with gentleness or respect) to the politics of NRSV. JohnFH | I hope to be engaged in that fully next week as well, so don't think I just left the discussion. ESV Psalm 23
Maybe you are backing away from that, which would be great by me. I deal with all the subjects mentioned head-on in confirmation classes, in sermons, and in private conversations. I'm not familiar with examples of statements which the author knows to be factually false. effect such changes. I assume that is what attracted you to MacArthur, since polemical apologists are a type of author you mention often. That is where the framing issue is coming from. * judgmental 87% The ESV, on the other hand, has consciously chosen to be a thoroughly Christian, ecclesial Bible (Christ in the OT and NT). I had an extended debate on 1Tim 3:12, Titus 1:6 "husband of one wife" or "person with one spouse" (.i.e. serpent “bruises” the heel of him. The God of Genesis is a tribal diety, "I am the only god you will worship" who is backing his tribe against other gods and other tribes in a very earthly sense. “I shall dwell in the house of the, It’s in the Bible: Barack Obama is Satan in disguise, Sexy yet Spiritual, and Easy to Translate, Krister Stendahl’s Three Rules of Religious Understanding, Southern Baptist Convention bans the use of NLT in church and home, “Cleanliness is next to Godliness”: The Talmudic Source. Tyre currently has about 120,000 inhabitants. To gibe an example of what I mean. the offspring of Eve in Gen 3:15 “bruises” the head of the serpent, and the
I note that you shift the burden of proof onto to someone like me who regards MacArthur as sincere unless proven otherwise. It has a pre-Freudian cast. If you want a literal translation of the Bible then go with the NASB as it is said to be the most literal English translation available closest to ⦠Posted by: Posted by: What it did do was shatter my faith in the teachers. For the rest, as I've shown in specific instances, the ESV is both more traditional and more accurate than the NRSV. It is also the case that NRSV is more accurate in the sense of ignoring the canonical sense a biblical text acquired over time a bit more often. The ESV is derived from the 1971 edition of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) text.. Crossway states the ESV "emphasizes 'word-for-word' accuracy, literary excellence, and depth of meaning." DanM | You assert that "On level 1 Abraham did not exist." They relate to the Bible as in "me, [their construct of] Paul, and the Holy Spirit." June 23, 2009 at 07:30 PM. The New Revised Standard Version of the Bible (NRSV) was published in 1989 and has received the widest acclaim and broadest support from academics and church leaders of any modern English translation.. And where the terms in Greek are appropriately gender-neutral, I certainly don't have a problem with them being so translated into English. Why not translate in the way supportive and loving of them? In Genesis, they mostly had myths and legends to work with as raw material. This group includes Daniel Block and Thomas Schreiner of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Craig Blomberg of Denver Seminary, Darrell Bock and Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary, Moises Silva of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, Daniel Gard of Concordia Theological Seminary, Robert Gordon of Cambridge University, and Scott Hafemann of Wheaton College. 6:9), changes the reference to giants being on the earth before the flood (Gen. 6:4), changes the command to abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thes. Jerad | Accuracy should never be used to describe a bible translation. 4) The church interprets Paul to mean X in passage Y. I assume your personal meaning comes from level 4, which is fine. You write "1) There is a real history of a material earth. The scholarship was still solid, but it seemed to many that the translation now was bowing to egalitarian concerns by going too far in its gender inclusiveness. Posted by: This is one reason why I would actually like to see it edited to remove some of the neologisms with reference to women, Junia, for example, and men only in many passages. I find the NRSV more accurate overall although I prefer the langauge of the KJV for many occasions. It is the newest translation of ⦠Fell free to delete the question about moderation post. It is not simply that it is harmless, but that it is also accurate. Posted by: While I definitively value trying to get the translation precise, what you seem to not realize is 1) X does not have to mean only, exclusively and always Y and 2) because we think X means Y does not tell us what Y means. I frequently switch back and forth to get alternate readings when I am in a discussion, or in church. I will admit that information can be distracting. It completely eliminates the archaic second person plural personal pronouns (thee, thou, thy, thine) that the RSV retained only in reference to God. He is focused on a sacrificial system and a covenant of obedience. In an effort to get rid of the word brethren, the NRSV many times adds the phrase "and sisters" without any support from the Greek text it professes to follow (e.g., Rom. JohnFH | Posted by: 3:16), removes the warning against science (1 Tim. I know, CD, that you reject fundamentalism, but your take on the Bible reminds me of the one fundamentalists have. This is history with a capital "H," the only kind of history worth paying attention to. Really, NRSV is a traditioned translation too, insofar as it often preserves KJV-RSV renderings which reflect a specifically Protestant Christian construal of the Bible and its message. June 25, 2009 at 08:53 PM. Posted by: Yep, I'll even praise the ESV for things they get right. Posted by: Posted by: For example, I have many friends who say the debate is about health care as So NIV is not too bad in your book either. I was being sharing oriented because you were asserting that the real reason for the opposition was some past abuse. It is of course a tremendous compliment that you, an unbeliever, pay ESV by singling it out for criticism. How I fear for your soul. This is how everyone processes information and the world, according to binary oppositions and graded hierarchies which are like flow charts: one wrong turn on the chart, and everything is messed up from that point on. I can be sad that PC has cheapened the English language, but nothing is to be gained by bemoaning what is well and truly lost. September 12, 2009 at 09:17 AM, A case in point is Psalm 23. The elegance of the translation is excellent, and the translation is very good. Thus when they agree you have a good sense that they're on the right track; when they disagree, it drives you to the original language, to wrestling with the text and with other students of the text. (i.e. eliminate people's right not to purchase health care, they pause at least critical faculties on hold for partisan political reasons to be a cautionary Certainly there's some overlap and lines will need to be drawn; I have yet to see a "study bible" that doesn't draw the lines far too much on the apologetic side (liberal or conservative) instead of reserving that stuff for the editorial pages. Posted by: I'm not seeing it, it seems very one sided to me. I'm not even sure you would debate this one. I actually carry in my Palm Pilot: ASV (1901) So it's a bit paradoxical that in such a setting, the Lord's Prayer is recited in a version which describes evil as a supernatural being. The new ESV-CE Bible translation will make Bible reading more understandable and accessible yet retain the accuracy and reliability necessary for faithful Catholics when reading Sacred Scripture. Whay up above you wrote: [snip] Top Posters. I freely bash all the major bible translations for screwing up Paul's frequent use of astrology. tradition of biblical phrases which have echoed and will continue to echo down
I don't object to the existence of level 3, I object to conflating it with level 1. 3a) I argue for a distinction between what the Greek means, and the church teachings based on the Greek. I read the Bible in the presence of and in dialogue with the Church Universal. a formal translation but not an interlinear). I think the NRSV better reflects the original. I guess I have to agree with John that a good study Bible has yet to be written. I find your four categories very interesting. Posted by: Permission requests that exceed the above guidelines must be directed to Good News Publishers, Attn: Bible Rights, 1300 Crescent Street, Wheaton, IL 60187, USA. There are three areas addressed in the preface to the ESV that are the direct result of criticisms leveled at many recent modern versions. Though I have also used and enjoy the NRSV. The same applies to (3a). It is debatable if the introduction of the word "intercourse" (Num. favor, I do not find your approach credible. and the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece, 27th ed. There is something to be said for conservatism in the realm of English Bible translation, if the goal is to work within a long-standing translation tradition. You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post. specifically Protestant. .” Rev. Soon after its publication, and repeated on other occasions, the RSV text was changed in many places. Your "crusade" has long passed the point of exorcising psychological processes. So that when people read the ESV they see an unambiguous command and not a gender ambiguous phrase (i.e. :-P I came to this discussion because I was looking for an old article I read on the ESV (which is my translation of choice, though I also dislike study notes in the text and value multiple translations (like the NAS and NAB and NRSV)). As for Dan Brown himself, I love his effect on popular culture. Posted by: She enunciated in such a way that it was understandable. Even in the light of only a few hours sleep I can see my typing was atrocious. 1) person with one spouse is unquestionably implying female as well as male emptied himself (Phi. Some people in the other thread were saying the NKJV was more literal but I'm not … 2) There are theories and themes that can drawn from subsets of these details weaving them together into narrative, the realm of history. Instead of your neo-positivist deism, give me that old-time religion. 0. 3:14), "through his blood" (Col. 1:14), "Lord" (1 Tim. 1:7) and "Amos" (Mat. I love the effect he has had in popularizing the New School and in particular Elaine Pagels. I'm not sure if that is better or worse, but it is more mature. June 23, 2009 at 05:13 PM. As a tip you may want to make the arrow bigger. 2:2) Yet, the word worship is retained when Satan tells Jesus to "fall down and worship me" (Mat. It lacks the requisite neutrality the term has in psychoanalysis. DanM | OK lets work this example. What would you call it? This is the sort of thing that I wouldn't tolerate from liberals either. The main change found in the NRSV, and that which has been the most controversial, is its elimination of masculine-oriented language. casual bible study -- NRSV because of more accurate materials, I'd definitely go with a dynamic translation over either. Regarding greater accuracy, clarity, and euphony, the NRSV falls short. It seems to follow with you that that if we understand it exactly as he wrote it he will have communicated perfectly with us with no signal loss or degradation leaving us unable to add or detract from it based on our own readings in community or by reading in light of something written afterward. I think this led to some of the debate regarding lies and liars above. The commentary that masquerades as "study notes" belongs in a separate volume, to be consulted (or not) and critiqued (or not) separately from the translation. Sorry if I have taken your thoughts more seriously than you wished that I would. ". Don't let the wound scab over. 9:5), the original period was changed to a comma. Now in terms of general readers.... heck yeah they notice. My policy is that I let the appointed reader of Scripture for Sunday read from whatever translation they treasure most (the ESV, in a previous congregation, was the pew Bible; in my current congregation, the NIV is the pew Bible). This translation focuses on “word for word” while also taking into consideration the differences in grammar, idiom and syntax of modern English to the original languages. the entire Tanakh and the whole Jewish tradition? We âscientifically and grammaticallyâ compared the ESV to the archaic, hard-to-understand King James Bible. As an evangelical, I take your polemics as a back-handed compliment. June 27, 2009 at 08:23 AM. DanM | In short, I agree with you. The rhetoric above that breaking slightly more than the ESV with the KJV translation philosophy makes the NRSV unsuitable for liturgical use still strikes me as completely overblown. Baptist Joshua on YouTube Answered question December 19, 2018. Claims of dishonesty are seldom made in civil conversation. This is all in addition to the scores of omitted phrases and verses in the New Testament because of the corrupt Greek text that the RSV was translated from. "Virgin" is restored to Isaiah 7:14. 2 ... that is NKJV, sometimes combined with literal translations such as the YLT or EBR. Though that is unfair to what the terms "evangelical" and "liberal" stand for (both good things, in my opinion). Iâll answer the slightly different question of why I encourage folks to use the NIV, rather than the NRSV (and yes, I used NRSV when doing my theology degree). An anglicized edition with British spellings for some words is available from HarperCollins UK. The ESV is the 4th translation in a series of revisions which go back to the first modern Bible translation: the Revised Version. So do I. ESV vs. NRSV 1) Overseers vs. Bishops (I Tim/Titus) 2) Propitiation vs. sacrifice of atonement (Rm 3:25) ... nor is one going to be saved by committing mortal sin and believing it has the Bible's sanction. Second, the ESV "carries forward classic translation principles in its literary style." The NRSV is the official revision of the RSV. My own experience has certainly magnified that perspective. But they shift fonts just like I did for stuff that they think that should be in the bible but isn't. Only one thing really concerns me, though. That is a mark against NRSV. September 11, 2009 at 09:13 AM, This is health care specific, moved discussion to healthcare thread, Posted by: 5:13, 20; Jud. ESV NRSV My comment 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. A recent comparison might be the revelations that the US torture program was created for the purpose of collecting false information to feed to congress.
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